That’s right folks! Count ‘em! Read ‘em & weep!
1. Condemning same-sex relationships harms people.
2. Sexual orientation is a pretty new concept.
3. Celibacy is a gift, not a mandate.
4. Sodom and Gomorrah was really only about gang rape.
5. Leviticus passages do prohibit ‘male to male’ relations, but it’s OT Law and we are under grace.
6. Paul in the New Testament was condemning same sex ‘lust’ not same-sex ‘love’
7. The term ‘homosexual’ didn’t even exist back then.
The above were presented to us and the world via a YouTube video log (Vlog) presented by Arielle Scarcella and Matthew Vines. It’s only about 4 minutes and can be seen here. You don’t need to watch the video however. You can go to Alpha and Omega Ministries and listen to Dr. James White’s point by point analysis of each one of the above. Dr. White’s audio webcast can be found here. Start listening at the 26 minute mark.
There’s not much I could add to Dr. White’s commentary. . .
Christian conduct vs. The World conduct. According to 1 Cor 5, we are only to judge those who are “in the church”. Those who are outside the church, God judges.
I think that Christians are spending way too much time judging people who are outside the church, rather than judging those who are “inside” the church.
In other words, we are to judge people who say that they are Christians (brothers in Christ), who does those things, and kick them out TO The World, for the destruction of the flesh. They belong to Satan.
The world will act like The World until the end of The World. The problem is when the church acts like the world, and justifies the conduct of the church as the world. Homosexuality is not allowed in the Church. Who are we to dictate what happens “IN THE WORLD”?
Lot lived among the unrighteous homosexual community. Lot was considered to be righteous (That is in the Bible, for those who think that there is no one righteous, no not one). Lot did not condemn the homosexual community. He let God do His job.
2 Peter 2:7-9 (KJV)
7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
We need to concentrate on the House of God, and let God concentrate on The World. Let the gays be gays, but judge righteously, and honestly, those who are in the church. Kick the gays out of the church to The World. Stop condemning those who are outside the church. Spread the gospel to those who want to hear it only. The gospel isn’t for those who don’t want it. Don’t force people to go to church that don’t want to be there. Church is an exclusive club, not inclusive. The World, however, is for all others.
And your point is, Ed? Who is being judged, and by whom? All I did was provide a list provided by two folks on YouTube and the link to a good critique of biblical accuracy of those statements. I didn’t hear Dr. White pass ‘personal’ judgment either, but only a critique aof the allegedly ‘biblical’ reasons. I deleted your bit about ‘Calvinists’ as it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of this post.
I am not complaining to your post at all. I’m just giving my 2 cents. You asked “who is being judged, and by whom”? The World is being judged, and it’s the Christians who are doing the judging. All of us Christians are guilty of that. Including you, and Dr. White, and me. We seem to judge those who are outside the church all the time. We point fingers all the time. Some even go to abortion clinics and judge the women as murderers. We are not to do that. But Christians do. Key words in the below reference is “if any man that is called a brother”. Since this is the KJV, the word “without” and “within” is “outside the church” and “inside the church”.
1 Corinthians 5:
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
Christians already know that homosexual acts are a sin, just like stealing and lying, and committing adultery, etc.
The people in the church should already know what the Bible states, for the Law is our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. If they don’t know what it states, then they have no business being a Christian. I’ve seen some church’s just preach Jesus…without the school master. They begin with the book of John for some reason. Repentance is the first step to being a Christian. That means that in order to repent, you must first know what to repent from. That means that the law must be preached for the purpose of repenting. That way, there is no ignorance of the law. For by the law is the knowledge of sin. Sin is the transgression of the law.
So, the House of God has a lot of House Cleaning to do. Those who call themselves Christian, and support Christians having homosexual relationships, they should be kicked out of the church.
But if they choose to let the world be the world, then to me, that isn’t the same as supporting gay relationships. The gays are not Christians, they are not “in the church”. They are “the world”, who are “outside the church”, and as such, God will judge them.
Who are they trying to justify homosexual acts to? The World? Or to Christians? Why are the Christians even listening to them?
Who is Dr. White preaching to? The World? Or to Christians? Is the world listening to Dr. White?
So why are we so concentrated on homosexuals anyway? Thieves, murderers, and liars should be of equal importance, too, shouldn’t it?
If by world, we mean the world system and what it approves of and condones, we are most certainly called to judge/discern the ‘world’s activities. As believers, we ought NOT be perosnally judging the eternal destiny of anyone. I’ve said time and again that I don’t hold the sinful behavior of all of the happy pagans out there and that they are mostly only acting naturally. I am free to offer God’s opinion in in any foruum, venue, discussion. If I am passing judgment on a particular, but politically corect activity, so be it. I am NOT judging any individual, only the behavior/activity. And I know ‘judging’ people is exactly what I will be accused of.
Perhaps the hoopla about SS relationships was caused by Matthew Vines (a professing Christian) preaching his mantra in places he has visited, including churches, and has now written a book, which less than mature, supposedly Bible believing Christians are buying into. Certainly thieves and jurders, etc are sin also, but yuo don’t see anyont jumping up and campaigning for the rights of thieves and murderers, do you?
For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
That’s one reason I prefer compassion over judgementalism.
Is it compassion to watch a person die in their sin, when you could give them God’s truth? That’s a yes/no question.
What do you think Jesus was talking about?
What was Jesus talking about when he said what? Not enough information in that question to attempt an answer.
You still don’t understand the difference between dietary restrictions and moral law. that’s a shame for any adult capable of intelligent thought, as I believe you are.
That’s a false dichotomy.
There was ONE Law known by Jesus and the Jews.
The separation of the Torah into different types of law is a desperate attempt to put Christians under the Law.
Anyone with any basic knowledge of the Ancient Hebrews would know that.
4. Sodom and Gomorrah was really only about gang rape.
Well Ezekiel obviously knew a different story and disagrees with you.
“Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy.”
Now maybe I’m a minority but I haven’t had homosexuals coming to my house demanding to have sex with visitors.
Btw this story is almost exactly the same as Judges 19 where the Levite offers the supposedly ‘gay’ men his concubine – and they rape her.
But I suppose you knew that.
Anyone who tries to link the behaviour of Sodom with homosexuality has no idea.
I’ll side with Ezekiel on this one.
Saying that homosexual behavior was NOT one of the reasons God destroyed S&G is intellectually indefensible.
Saying it is, is dishonest.
I’ve outlined why.
Argue with Ezekiel.
Ezekiel was dead on. but he did not say that the sin of S&G did not include homosexuality, from that one verse. It’s not intellectually defensible for the biblically literate.