This picture reminds me of the crowd outside of Lot’s door . . .
At this rally, the Mayor of Sacramento suggested Jesus would allow same-sex marriage. I suppose he believes the sin in the encounter at Lot’s home was merely “inhospitality”. Consider this:
The basis for this (inhospitably) argument is that the men of the city asked “to know” (KJV) the angels in the sense of “to get aquainted” with them. The Hebrew word word translated “to know” is yada and is the common word for “to know.” In the average context, it does have this basic meaning. However, the Bible often used the term “to know” as a euphemism for carnal knowledge, or sexual relations. It is used this way first when Adam “knew” his wife Eve and she conceived and bare him a son (Gen. 4:1). It is also used this way in the following passages: Gen. 4:17, 25; 38:26; Judg. 19:25; 1 Sam 1:19; 1 Kings 1:4 and even in the New Testament in Matt. 1:25 and Luke 1:34. Most translations favor this meaning for Genesis 19:5 as well. Notice how this is brought out in the following translations:
“They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them” (NIV), “that we may have relations with them” (NASB), “that we may know them carnally” (NKJV), “that we may have intimacies with them” (NAB), “so we can have sex with them” (NLT), “so that we can have intercourse with them” (NJB).
The point is that this is the preferred meaning of scholars and translators. The only way you would arrive at the meaning of “get aquainted with” in Genesis 19:5 is to approach it with a bias in favor of homosexuality. The idea that God would destroy a city merely because of a lack of hospitality is unthinkable. And all the men of the city would not surround Lot’s house and beat down his door merely to “get aquanited” with these men. Lot would not have begged them “Please, my brothers . . . don’t do such a wicked thing” (verse 7, NLT) if that was all that they wanted. When he offered his two daughters to them instead and said that they “have not known a man” (verse 8), it is obvious that he did not mean that they had never been aquanited with anybody so you guys can go ahead and get aquanited with them. This is further emphasized when he says “do to them whatever you like; only do nothing to these men” (verse 8). This indicates that the men of the city wanted to do something more than merely meet these men. It can also be seen in their response, since they told Lot “now we will treat you worse than them” (verse 9). Finally, Jude 7 specifically states that the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was sexual immorality (see also 2 Peter 2:6-10). – Source.
At least in the Genesis account, there was no pretense on the part of the men of the city who lusted after Lot’s visitors that God somehow approved of their immorality.
And don’t even think about playing the “Why do you Christians single out homosexuality?” card. If you are engaged in homosexual activity, or a proponent of “gay” marriage and reading this, remember that you brought this to our door and made it an issue, with all of your recent ‘activity’.
Yes, ALL sin is SIN. It is SIN that sends men to Hell, regardless of what it looks like. There is good news however:
“Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you— unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,” – 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
If you are reading this and know not Christ, know that in your unbelief you stand condemned already (John 3:18) may God open your eyes and ears to see and hear His gospel, so that you would recognize your wretched condition, and by His grace repent, turn to Him, and LIVE! (Ephesians 2:8-9).
The Battle Cry 
It’s an interesting passage you bring up…
Perhaps you can explain something to me.
Genesis 19:8 “Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof”
Now I read this as Lot offering his two daughters in place of the two men. Is that because he KNOWS they are angels and God would smile upon the sacrifice of his beloved daughters to a mob? Or is it it because he some how feels the men are somehow worth more and it would be bad form to allow anything to happen to guests of his house?
Seriously, this has always troubled me. Is there a third way to see this?
Now, how would I feel if i were placed in a similar situation? Well sacrificing my daughters would NEVER be on the table…that much is certain. Nor would have I consented to throwing the two guests out to the mob. All for one and one for all! We fight and die together.
I am interested in your take.
R.
LikeLike
My take – Lot’s response was unjustifiably sinful. We are not told why he responded the way he did, but it might have had something to do with the patriarchal culture that held women in low esteem and elevated the status of ‘guests’ to a level we would not dare consider.
LikeLike
That’s how I thought you’d feel! 🙂
To me, it’s one of the more disturbing scenarios in the Bible.
R.
LikeLike
PS is there such a thing as justifiable sin ….given what I know of you I would have thought you’d see that as an oxymoron. 😉
LikeLike
That can be a tough question…….did Corrie Ten Boom sin when she lied to the Nazis about hiding Jews in her home? I can think of other examples, and have not answered your question. Maybe later…….might be another forum altogether.
LikeLike
I just wanted to ad as well the cultural aspect of this passage….it really shows the low esteem that women were held in, in that particular culture. Lot’s decision seems unfathomable to us, yet if you would take a visitor into your home, then you took the responsibility of them and care for them completely. But, women were held in low esteem.
In fact, I believe in the Greek culture, the wife was considered just a step above the slave. But I also feel that it shows how Lot himself had gained his own moreals, own values that had been so corrupted by living in Sodom. I don’t see how you can live in such an environment and not have it influence you. His morals had been corrupted to this extent…it was a gesture that showed his own moral depravity as the result of living in Sodom.
This is the danger of no bounderies….reminds me of Psalm 1:1 “Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of the scornful” Look at the progression. First, you’re listening to the counsel of the ungodly. Then, ya stand around with them…then you’re sitting in their company.
The other thing here, is even tho he offered, they were not interested in the daughters. They wanted the men…at least Lot still calles THAT wickedness….
Sorry this got long Dan… 🙂
LikeLike
That’s exactly the scenario i was thinking of! 🙂
Good to know that you do see the trouble with some absolutes.
R.
LikeLike
Warning! Warning!
Trouble with absolutes? What ‘absolute’ is in trouble here?
🙂
LikeLike
“there are no justifiable sins”
Not suggesting you said that.
But some have said that.
The scenario you mentioned earlier suggests that there may indeed be degrees of sin…
R.
LikeLike
Yes, some have……and it depends on who defines sin and how it is defined. From the original post:
“ALL sin is SIN. It is SIN that sends men to Hell, regardless of what it looks like. There is good news however:
“Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you— unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,” – 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
If you are reading this and know not Christ, know that in your unbelief you stand condemned already (John 3:18) may God open your eyes and ears to see and hear His gospel, so that you would recognize your wretched condition, and by His grace repent, turn to Him, and LIVE! (Ephesians 2:8-9).”
LikeLike
So if I read you right… Ms. Boom when she lies to the Nazis, is sinning by lying, BUT those sins are forgiven PROVIDED she accepts Jesus Christ.
Let me ask you this…
Does the Nazi who pushes the Jews into the showers AND who also accepts Jesus Christ receive the same redemption?
R.
LikeLike
I didn’t make a judgment call and hesitate to do so. Some things are left between a person and God. Corrie Ten Boom did what she did as a believer in Christ. It is not mine to pass judgment, but I feel that she settled the matter between herself and God a long, long time ago.
LikeLike
Fair enough…
LikeLike
But my second question still remains…
LikeLike
Redemption through Christ’s atoning sacrifice is avilable to all who believe, regardless of the number and type of sins committed. We sin because we are sinners, DEAD in sin. Dead is dead – there are no degrees. The only reason we are not all Hitlers is because of God’s restraining hand. We are all equally sinful by nature.
LikeLike
The only reason we are not all Hitlers is because of God’s restraining hand.
Where is the room for freewill that I hear so much about then?
The implication is then that God picks and chooses when and where he will restrain and where he will not. Pardon me but that seems almost as capricious as the Gods of old.
Also,
Is it your suggestion that being complicit in the deaths of 6 million people is less offensive to God than not bending your knee to Him?
A person could directly be responsible for the deaths and suffering of millions BUT so long as he believes in the message of redemption through Christ he is forgiven, BUT the person who lives and honest and charitable life yet remains unconvinced by the Bible…he is Dead in Sin and consigned to torment of Hell?
R.
LikeLike
Robert,
Good questions.
We are free to act according to the inclinations of our hearts. Apart from Christ we have a human heart that is: ” only evil continually” (Gen 6:5), “Deceitful above all things” (Jeremiah 17:9), and in bondage to sin. The heart regenerated by the Holy Spirit is no longer in bondage to the power of sin, but free to love serve God and fellow man, and NOT choose sin, although there is a constant battle in the life of the believer (Romans 7).
The notion that we are totally free to choose, or not choose Christ is foreign to scripture. The one who truly chooses Christ does in fact make a decision of the will, but the Holy Spirit has acted upon the human will and made the offer of salvation through Christ an “irresistable proposition”. Such is the dawing power of God to His Son (John 6:44).
Your second premise is true because the nature of sin is not just ‘acts’ committed but one rooted in man’s inner depravity. All men are equally depraved, whether their lives are marked by horrible acts or kindness and charity. Such is the nature of sin. Even the most loving and charitable acts (by our definition) are “filty rags” (Isaiah 64:4).
Not exactly an easy concept for human, works oriented logic, but the viewpoint of scripture. We think of sin in terms of ‘things’ done, or not done. The bottom line SIN issue is our very nature apart from Christ.
Thanks for the questions, REALLY, although a bit off topic. I hope others are reading this dialogue. 🙂 I hope it has been helpful
LikeLike
Oh, no! Have I been missing out on all this?!
LikeLike
Hi Jason! Welcome!
LikeLike
Dan said..
The notion that we are totally free to choose, or not choose Christ is foreign to scripture.
That’s interesting to hear you say that. I am not convinced that there is such a thing a freewill.
Dan said further:
The one who truly chooses Christ does in fact make a decision of the will, but the Holy Spirit has acted upon the human will and made the offer of salvation through Christ an “irresistable proposition”. Such is the dawing power of God to His Son
How does the Holy Spirit decide who to act upon and who NOT to? Your statement implies that it isn’t even up to the person at all.
R.
LikeLike
It’s about God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility. Another one we cannot get our heads wrapped around. Here is a link to a good explanation of the doctrine of election and a short excerpt.
From an online source http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=1551 :
The process of election, as worked out in our own lives, does not violate our will. That is, the doctrine of “irresistible grace” does not mean “divine coercion,” as if God bullies you into submission to do his will. Rather, it is compelling persuasion. The devil has blinded the eyes of the world (2 Cor. 4:4) and once our eyes have been enlightened by the Spirit of God, we see clearly what God has done for us. Further, if grace were resistible, this would mean that the person who can resist God’s will is a strong and powerful individual and those who can’t (and thus those who get saved) are weaklings. That is not the biblical picture.
There are other good sources, such as R.C. Sproul’s book, Chosen by God. Haven’t you had some of these discussions with Jason? Just asking.
LikeLike
Robert,
Up until recently, the last few months even, I did believe in free will, not predestination. I fought it hard…had all my facts….but then I backed up, God got my attention in a big way, I put away my preconceived notions, and started to listen. I began to check into, for myself the things I was hearing, and while I don’t completely understand it, (I’m learning more every day), there is no way scripturally that we can not as believers believe in predestination. That’s all I’m saying about that part of it, it’s a huge can of worms for some, and I don’t have a lot of time today, but what I wanted to tell you is that I too had/have a hard time understanding why some and not all.
It doesn’t “seem fair” or “what a loving God would do”…but I don’t think God owes it to anyone who doesn’t want Him to begin with, to give them the desire to want what they need. Just because He does it for some, does not require Him to do it for everyone….
The other thing I would say is that God’s basis for choosing is completely different from how humanity thinks. If a governor pardons a serial murderer on death row, why not begin a protest then asking to pardon all of the murderers on death row? This is spite of the fact that all of the evidence plainly shows the man is guilty. Or would you wonder why; when all of the evidence is laid out before you, why in the world he would even pardon the one? In this respect, it makes no sense to me to wonder why God doesn’t choose everyone. Like I said, if He knows (which He does) that the hardened heart will remain hard and reject Him to death, why would He reveal Himself to that person to begin with?
Again, I don’t have a lot of time today…but I’ll be back and forth…
LikeLike
A men I work with, has told me that if you look at scripture and evaluate ‘free will’ synergism and God’s total sovereignty in salvation (monergism) you have to come down on the side of monergism. The scriptural evidence for one is too strong to refute it without ‘reading into’ scripture what is not really there.
LikeLike
So then are you two telling me that you don’t even know if YOU are saved?
My head is spinning here!
R
LikeLike
Where da heck you get dat wit what I said???
LikeLike
Jason once alluded to something like that once a while back….
I am re-reading your post…maybe I misunderstood you.
R.
LikeLike
there is no way scripturally that we can not as believers believe in predestination.
That statement is a mess…grammatically.
Do you or don’t you…I am lost. 😦
LikeLike
nuh-uhh.
LikeLike
Eek, sorry, how about, once you dive into scripture, there is no other way to believe than in predestination.
🙂
LikeLike
Jason
nuh-uhh.
Didn’t you once say to be that no one can be sure who is saved?
wracking my brain now…maybe that wasn’t you.
R.
LikeLike
there is no other way to believe than in predestination
yikes
Than why to change anything?
😦
LikeLike
I wish I had time to try and explain what I’m meaning Robert…I’m not doing very well and I apologize…I’ll see how things are tonight when I get home, hopefully the guys will jump in if they get a minute….talk at ya later..
LikeLike
Now we’re getting somewhere.
One can have a degree of assurance, if they continue in what Scripture says. So there is a difference between the person believing that they might be in Christ and that person thinking that they know if other people are.
There is a lot more to say about that, but this could achieve legendary bunny trail status in a hurry, even for me.
Stop it.
Anyway,
this question
“Than why to change anything?”
All of a sudden drifts into Scripture as an authority territory.
For instance, look at this
“Philippians 2:12-13 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.”
there is a seemingly irreconcilable tension in this, unless you presume that the person now has a heart and a mind which desires something that they never did before. The person now has an inclination to be something that is totally new. This person bears the baggage of the past, muscle memory is not a bad way to think about it, and so those in the church are commanded to keep each other focused on spiritual, moral, ethical, social, growth in Christ. But what makes any of this possible, in fact, is that God saves people and people don’t save people – that is, the change was brought about by God solely by his grace in Christ.
The reason for changing or doing anything is because that is what people who are really changed want to do. It becomes an obedient inclination, perhaps not greatly visible outside (although often it is AMAZINGLY visible) initially, but the outside is becoming accustomed to what has happened inside.
There is a gross ton of Scripture for this if it would help, or if you would like to double-check…which is always wise.
LikeLike
“the person believing that they might be in Christ and that person thinking that they know if other people are”
wowie. OK, lemme try that again for clarity sake.
A person can beleive that they know Christ. It is possible that they are wrong, but there are Scriptural “marks” which a person can pray for.
A person cannot know if another person is in Christ.
LikeLike
The person now has an inclination to be something that is totally new. This person bears the baggage of the past, muscle memory is not a bad way to think about it, and so those in the church are commanded to keep each other focused on spiritual, moral, ethical, social, growth in Christ.
So your suggestion is that this is an attitude change of biblical proportions?
Pardon the pun I couldn’t resist.
I can see why some would-be Christians infuriate you so.
R.
LikeLike
“attitude change of biblical proportions”
That’s especially funny since at least three dozen people are praying for something like that in me.
HA
“I can see why some would-be Christians infuriate you so”
There are several problems with the textually-amputated varieties of teaching going on. The first I’m sure seems minor to you, but idolatry is a much bigger problem fot God than anything else. The reason is most well defined in Christ himself. Christ was completely dependent on the The Holy Spirit while on the earth. That total devotion to God, totally given to the Father’s purposes is our example as to who we are to be. But to do this, to be what Christ was, one needs to have a correct understanding of who God is – faith is dumb if it is in a non-existent object. All of God’s concern in the Old Testament was reflective of his concern over the natural human inclination towards self governance and self regulation (OT – all the people did what was right in their own eyes) and if we get that which we are worshiping wrong, we get a lot of other things wrong, too.
So the chronic Oprahfication of popular theology, that is, everyone’s opinion counts, leads people to do, basically (perhaps without stealing…perhaps not, what the guy Micah did in Judges 17, or the sad scene in Isaiah 44:10-20. (It’s too much to cut and paste).
So the reply goes something like, “God is merciful and his grace covers a multitude of sins” which is absolutely true, but that has nothing to do with the great responsibility upon the person doind the teaching to do everything they can to get it right.
So, like I said…bunny trails always near to my fingertips.
LikeLike
Oprah-fication…
That woman…the fact that 25 million people in this country read and watch what she says…you think she’d be bit more … i don’t know… studious or diligent in her vetting process!
R
LikeLike