Columbo Apologetics #3

Posted by Dan C. on

I have another friend, I’ll call him Bob, who I have known for some years now. Bob is, by his own admission, a Dispensationalist, but just the ordinary garden variety taught first by John Darby in the 19th century. As such, he agrees with me that salvation has always been by grace through faith, since Abraham’s faith was counted as righteousness. We’ve been chatting about certain passages in Romans via email.

During one of his emails to me today, Bob had this to say:

After quoting Gal 2:21 , “I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness comes by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.” (All well and good).

Then he said:

Then you have to also look at Romans 5:13 and Romans 7:7-9.

Romans 5:13 is before the law.  Abraham fell under this.

Romans 7:7-9 for Jews

I replied concerning Rom 5:13,

“Adam fell before the law was given and God confronted him and let him know he had sinned. One might say that God’s commandment “do not eat……” was ‘law’ but not the Law of Moses. Adam then passed on his fallenness to the rest of the human race that followed. Then Israel was given the Law of Moses and from that point that Law has served to awaken sin in human beings.”

Concerning Rom 7:7-9,

Paul was speaking to the church in Rome, in which there were, at one time or another, both Jewish and Gentile converts to Christianity.  The early Roman church(s) were dominated and led by Jewish disciples of Jesus of course,  but when all Jews were expelled from the city of Rome, however, only the Gentile Christians remained. Therefore, the church grew and expanded as a largely Gentile community from 49 to 54 A.D. Jews were expelled from Rome several times. In 139 BC the Jews were expelled after being accused of missionary efforts. Then in AD 19 Tiberius once again expelled Jews from the city for similar reasons. The Emperor Claudius was in office 41-54 A.D. and would have expelled Jews from Rome during that period.  Historians and theologians tell us that Paul wrote his letter to the church in Rome circa 57/58 A.D. What does that tell you about who Romans 7:7-9 was ‘for’? (Enter Columbo)

Bob replied with:

Adam and Eve got the knowledge of good and evil from a tree.  Not from Moses.

No one else for knowledge of good and evil from a tree but Adam and Eve.

To which I replied:

You are not listening, Ed. I said:

One might say that God’s commandment “do not eat……” was ‘law’ but not the Law of Moses. Here’s a question for you: Was eating from the Tree of Good and Evil a sin? Simple “yes” or “no” answer. Did Adam know it was a sin? Simple “yes” or “no”. IF (hypothetical and nothing personal), based on your assertion that before he Law of Moses there was no sin, I think we are done. IF you say no, I emphatically conclude that you are in bondage to the form of dispensation you espouse.

I hope he let’s that sink and remains silent.

The prevailing thought among certain dispensationalists is that dispensationalism is explicitly taught in Paul’s letters. They have to make that claim because they say they only follow what is clearly written and are “rightly dividing the word of truth” (2 Tim 2:15) If you dare suggest that dispensationalism is not explicitly taught in Scripture but was formulated in the 19th century by men (Darby, Bullinger and a few others), they refuse to  entertain the thought because ANYTHING outside of the KJV Bible is invalid and most, if not all of today’s Christianity is “twistianity”.

Maybe they don’t understand what “explicit” means. Maybe they have “steel trap minds” (rusted shut). Maybe 2 Cor 2:14 applies, in which case I grieve for their souls. Your guess is as good as mine.

Be Blessed!

11 responses to “Columbo Apologetics #3”

  1. Well, Bob kept emailing me and said, “I can’t remain silent.” I won’t go into the details, but I finally just told him that I thought his entire crusade seemed to be to “prove” John Darby and dispensationalism and that he didn’t need to do that. It’s not a primary issue. I told him that Grace through faith is, and we agree on that point. The end.

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  2. Interesting post, Dan. (Shall we call you Dan C”olumbo?”)

    I like the simple Tree of Good and Evil question. The answer is obvious.

    It seems like the discussion ended well. It is certainly not a primary issue.

    I’m still planning a comment on your recent post titled “Columbo Apologetics #1. I looked up Grace Ambassadors/Justin Johnson mentioned by one of the people who commented on that post.

    I’ve watched this through once and will probably do one more viewing before making my comment.

    https://graceambassadors.com/tradition/a-brief-church-history

    After one viewing it seems that Johnson briefly skims over certain things in church history and uses his views to make a case for some odd theology. I’ve learned a bit about the history of this way of thinking, but I’ve been too busy to pursue it much further.

    There is a sizable hole in my backyard where I’m preparing to fix a water leak from my well pump to the house. I’ve got a large mound of clay and rock back there (after a few inches of topsoil the ground is 80% slate-like rock here), and I’ve found the leak location. Its ability to hide was as crafty one of Columbo’s villains. Repair parts are coming this afternoon, but it will take a few days to get the entire thing filled back in and covered up. My comment may take awhile but I found the Justin Johnson video interesting and want to do a little more research before making another comment.

    Now, I just have to make an easy connection. Well, it should be an easy connection.

    God’s blessings…

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    • I spent a couple of hours yesterday evening and more time this morning listening and taking notes. Yesterday I downloaded the notes, converted them to Word and interspersed my noted in red. I think you summed up the lesson quite fairly and with a note of kindness (just ODD?). How’s the hole project coming along?

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      • Hi Dan. I’m heading out to fix the leak now. Had a plumbing part issue.
        I was doing about three things when I was trying to view the video so to be fair to this guy I have to watch it again. It was obvious he was way off with this weird form of dispensationalism (Isn’t it called mid-Acts Pauline dispensation?). I may get to view it later in the day when I can focus better.
        I’ve learned about a few men who lived in the 19th century who seemed to give this thing a jumpstart. Did you mention the 1880s’? Did the root of this strange theology start then?

        Thanks for the encouragement. After fixing the leak, I’m going to watch it for a day or so to make sure there are no leaks. And then comes the big job of filling in the hole. It’s all good. The sweating has been good for me. While I’m waiting during the leak check I’ve got a ton of things to catch up on, mostly garden plants that I haven’t had the chance to get to. There are the tomato suckers, some staking, and a few vine plants I need to set up support for. It’s pretty cool to watch how God’s creation in action . The garlic is almost ready to harvest. I don’t have a big garden, but it keeps me busy.

        I hope you have a great day!

        I’ll probably get back to this video tonight.

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    • “https://www.facebook.com/dan.cartwright.71” is my FB page. If you want a copy of my notes, message me privately with an email address. I haven’t figured out how to attach a file to a FB message. I bet it’s simple.

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      • Thanks, Dan.

        I’ll definitely Facebook friend you when I get to it. I don’t get there very often.

        My email address is chrisreimers@cablelynx.com.

        I would really like to see your notes. I’m pretty sure I still have your email address from some messages we sent back and forth years ago.

        Thank you!

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