I apologize for the length of this post, but I needed to transcribe it if for nothing else, to be able to reread and study it further. What follows is a FB Conversation I have been having with Harry Vartanian. The beliefs taught by Harry and Tom are sincerely held and maintained as rock solid truth.. They believe what they want to believe, and therefore are somewhat lacking in the intelligent and polite discourse. Through the years I have had similar discussions. Please note that the FB group where this conversation occurred is a Public group in the public domain. Therefore, there are no privacy violations in this blog post.
Here is the post that started it all:
There was a particular small section of Tom Bacon’s teaching that specifically caught my attention:
He tells us that we are NOT supposed to believe the statements in 1 Cor 15:1-4, but we are to believe in the events in the statements (underlined below). He seems to also state that we only need to remember that our sins were forgiven when Christ died on the cross and it’s not necessary to repent of and confess our sins in the here and now. There’s a term for that, and we’ll get to it.
1Co 15:1-4 “Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.”
Here is my reply to Tom & Harry:
I realize that I sounded harsh, but how can believing Paul’s teaching in the 1 Corinthian passage NOT mean believing in the events that are described therein?
Here’s the main part of Harry’s reply to my comment:
Never mind the silly remark that there was not even one contradiction in the earlier post(s) or his calling me ignorant, but note the emphasis on 1 Cor 15:1-4 being from the KJV. That’s significant. There are some KJV only folks that believe that if you read Paul’s gospel in any other translation than the KJV, you might be heading straight to hell. After all the 1611 KJV is just as inspired as the original texts (that no one has) of Scripture.
It was a really long reply with a lot of scripture passages that ‘proved’ his argument (NOT). He added that:
Still being rather flabbergasted at Harry’s ‘creative’ interpretations of Scripture, this is where I was bit by the “snark monster”:
To which he replied, explaining why he called me ignorant and reinforcing his certain conclusion that I was never saved, having rejected Paul’s gospel.
Back to square one? Not quite. Harry did reinforce his (and others’) position that everything having to do with forgiveness happened at the Cross and that’s that.
So I decided I might want to try and end a most ‘interesting’ conversation and replied:
I figured that including a link to a good article about the Hyper Grace movement, preceded by an increased level of “snark” would do the trick (at least I said “probably” wouldn’t read the article and didn’t return the favor of calling him names. I was wrong. Here is his next volley:
His main points this time are 1) If you don’t leave the matter of forgiveness at the foot of the Cross but 
also confess your sin and receive forgiveness in the here and now, you have rejected Paul’s gospel and are headed for the fiery furnace and 2) if you don’t rely on the KJV and nothing but the KJV you might be a spawn of Satan, along with anyone behind a pulpit who might consult other translations or doctrinally sound commentators.
My attempt early this morning (3 June, 2023) was this:
I meant every word of it, but at least didn’t use the “L” word. Since then, I received a comment from a Daryl Gass telling me “I read your article and see if hat the Author is mixing gospels! Now I will ask you to read mine to see clearly what the difference is between the gospel that Paul taught and the gospel the Jesus and the 12 apostles taught.”;
His article on a FB page called “The False Trinity god Rebuttal and Other Scriptural Truths. Thing is, I have to join the group since it’s a Private Group. Since he implies that Jesus and the Apostles taught “different” gospels, I admit I am curious.
Right now, I think I need a nap. This has been exhausting!
The Battle Cry 
Hi, Dan!
Walking contradiction is right!!! I will never understand these folks who do not think, believe, teach that we need repentance, confession or ask for forgiveness. I didn’t read Daryl’s link but he sounds like a Mid Acts Dispensationalist. If so that is another form of hyper grace. They ignore everyone but Paul and do not believe anyone needs to be baptized today that it was only for the Jews. Thank you for sharing this. It is sad how many Christians are caught up in false teachings today. The KJVO folks are really difficult for me to deal with! Anyway, have a blessed Saturday!!!
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Difficult might be an understatement, but I continue trying, mostly by just providing passages of scripture from the KJV. People believe what they want to believe. They seem to be averse to believing the clear teaching of the 1611 KJV. I am waiting for someone from ‘The Gospel of Grace’ page to respond to 1 John 1:9.
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I’m not sure if you got my response back my email is als0810@comcast.net
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Hi Dan, I’m impressed that you didn’t get a headache! Hard to comprehend that one could even think that way! Blessings!
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Thanks for the sanity check, Bruce. Sometimes I wonder about my own thinking processes. That being said, I once had a co-worker who told me that he never had a course in critical thinking and logic until graduate school. Maybe that’s part of what’s going on. Some folks have never been taught how to think and reason.
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That is quite possible, Dan, or “common sense” is not actually common. I saw your endeavour to keep it cordial, few there be that do that, well done. Blessings!
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Perhaps part of all this is my needing to practice “cordiality”. It’s not always what I’m thinking. 🙂
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Oh, I know that first hand! 🙂
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I finally received an answer to my 1 John 1:9 question. Here is the text of my last reply:
Harry Vartanian: Concerning the meaning of 1 John 9 you wrote:
“John nor the other 11 original apostles did not know of what the cross accomplished. This was only made manifest through apostle Paul (Romans 16:26). The doctrine found in john along with all of the old testament doctrine (Genesis-Acts 7) was ONLY written to the nation of Israel. We are living in the dispensation of grace and ifs Paul’s 13 epistles in which is our doctrine today (Romans-Philemon).”
Here is my final answer to you:
John’s Gospel, as well as two letters to the church (1 & 2 John) and a more personal letter (3 John) were written between c.86 and 88AD.
Paul’s letters were written most probably between 50 A.D.and 67 A.D, meaning, even if the dates are slightly off, they were written well before John’s letters. And you maintain that:
Paul had already clearly defined the gospel in 1 Cor 15:1-4. (Written 53-54 AD.) And 11 apostles didn’t know what happened at the cross? Are you serious?
The Gospel of John was written to a broad audience to prove that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. As an eyewitness to the love and power displayed in the miracles of Jesus, John gives us an up-close and personal look at Christ's identity. He shows us that Jesus, though fully God, came in the flesh to distinctly and accurately reveal God, and that Christ is the source of eternal life to all who believe in him.
1 John was written to guide Christians into true doctrine while helping them to avoid false beliefs and actions. In 1 John, John focuses on the truth of Christ (1:1-4), the lifestyle of the authentic believer (1:5-2:14), the believer’s relationship with those outside the church (2:15-27), along with a personal exhortation to the believers to love one another and to shine the light of God in their lives (2:28-5:21).
2 John is a more personal letter written to the church of Ephesus. John commands the church to “(1) walk in the truth, (2) obey God’s commandments, (3) love one another, and (4) guard the teachings of Christ and they would not be deceived by the antichrist.” John greets and blesses the believers (1-3), exhorts the believers to love (4-6), warns of false teachers (7-11), and plans a visit to the local churches in the area (12-13).
3 John unlike 1&2 John is a more personal letter. Whereas 1&2 John were written to the Christian church, 3 John is written to three individuals: Gaius (1), the one receiving the letter; Diotrephes (9), a troublemaker in the church; and Demetrius (12), the one carrying the letter to Gaius. In 3 John, the apostle greets Gaius (1-2), commends the Gaius for standing for truth (3-4), discusses issues with Gaius (5-12), and discusses his future visit with Gaius (13-14).
You say that John’s doctrine (I assume you mean the gospel and the letters) was written to the Nation of Israel. Are you serious? Are you blinded by your versin of ‘dispensationalism’? I do not deny that there dispensations throughout history, but I probably differ with you about their exact definitions. I refuse to be dogmatic, unlike you and others sleeping in the hyper grace camp.
At any rate, this will be my last contribution to this marathon discussion. You will believe what you want to believe, no matter what anyone else might believe, or what scripture plainly teaches. One last thing – I still love the KJV but have not made it my idol.
I would like to thank you for giving me the opportunity for further Bible study.
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